"This question appears to be off topic because it is better asked on ELL."

Question

A bit of background before I begin: I am a moderator on ELL, and I admit to not being entirely familiar with what is and isn't on-topic here on ELU. I am posting this discussion because I see a trend that I think needs to be addressed, and the following are just my brainstormed thoughts and opinions; they do not reflect official policy of either site. I really want to hear what you guys think, and I'm open to having my mind changed! :)

So, today a question was closed on ELU and reposted on ELL. This is great; the question is actually appropriate for ELL, I'm glad the user was willing to open an account, and I hope they get great answers to their question. The problem I have is not with what happened with the question itself, but this comment that I read on it:

This question appears to be off-topic because it is better asked on ELL.

This isn't the first time I've seen comments like this. Usually they're less specific: "We also have a sister site, ELL. You might find it useful/consider asking this there." And that's okay too; if a question is off-topic here on ELU and you think someone could get a good answer on ELL, of course it makes me happy for people to tell them that! The problem I have is this:

A question cannot be off-topic on one site for no other reason than that it fits better on another.

(Again, above is my current personal opinion, though I do base it on my current understanding of the SE system.)

There are a lot of sites with overlap, and ELL and ELU are one such pair. There have been several discussions on this already, and I don't want to get into what is and isn't on topic on each site; that's not the point. The point is this:

There are some things that are on-topic on ELU. There are some things that are on-topic on ELL. There are some things that are on-topic on both. If a question falls into the "could go either way" category, it belongs on the site it was originally posted to. So that means that the only time we will be suggesting that a user post their question on the other site instead, it is because their question is off-topic on the site they are currently posting it on. It is not off-topic because it would work better somewhere else; it must be off-topic because it is inherently off-topic on the site it was originally posted on. And once it has been determined that this is the case, then you decide "is this question super awesome, and would it work much better on the other site (ELL or ELU)?" If the answer to that question is yes, then you ask the OP to repost (or flag for migration). But the question first has to be off-topic on the site it was originally posted to, in and of itself, regardless of whether the sister site existed or not.

So basically what I'm saying is... Questions should never be custom-closed as off-topic because they are better suited elsewhere. A question is either on-topic or off-topic on a given site, completely independent of other sites in the network. The question you must ask is "If ELU was the only site in the entire network, would this question be off-topic?" If the answer is yes, close it stating the specific reason for which it is off-topic, and then decide if you think it fits on ELL or not. If the answer is no, then the question is fine where it is.

Okay, so I'd love to hear the community's thoughts. Please do keep in mind that I'm not trying to discuss what is and isn't on-topic for either site; we've done that plenty of times and I'm sure it'll come up again. I'm just saying that when something is off-topic, it's gotta be off-topic because you guys think it's off-topic, not because it would maybe work on ELL. Go forth and discuss! :)

Answer 1

To be brief, the questions which are usually tagged as being better suited to ELL are not necessarily off-topic. I think a much more common reason for closing or suggesting that many of them be migrated to ELL is because they are considered basic English grammar questions; which until very recently were swept under the general reference rug.

Is it therefore more considerate to say that the question is off-topic and better suited to the sister-site, or as Mr Hen suggested, tell the OP his/her question is trivial (for the real language experts and enthusiasts in ELU) and should be asked at ELL? Which might make it sound more like a landfill.

I do agree however, that a poorly thought out question on ELU will still be a bad question on ELL. But there are cases where a good question is classified as being "too easy" (also read, too boring) for many veterans on ELU if only because they have seen the same type of question repeatedly asked on the site.

Answer 2

Wow. I searched Google in search of a word and after several variations of my search, I landed on this site. Thus, I was not aware there was another site. My suggestion is that you word this phrase so that it does not make a newcomer feel as if they violated a policy. Your current statement is courteous but there is a lot to learn to take full advantage of the site but initially when just looking for a word one might not be aware that there are different sites.

Just my thoughts

Answer 3

I don't disagree with your main point so this is mostly rambling thoughts on finding an appropriate solution to a few issues.

Are basic English usage questions on-topic?

EL&U needs to decide whether we want questions are simple, basic usage questions. Right now the community seems to be closing most of these as off-topic. I am assuming that this is because EL&U isn't terribly interested in teaching basic English and are more interested in the "fun" questions.

This behavior wasn't true during my previous bout of activity a few years ago so I am unsure of the history here.

See also:

• Continued recommendations that things be moved to ELL

How should we handle topical overlap?

I've asked a bunch of questions in chat about the goals for both ELL and Writers.SE in order to understand which place is most appropriate for specific questions. But the underlying question is when we should move questions between the sites:

1. Never
2. When a question is "more suited" for a sister site
3. When a question is unsuited for EL&U but is suited for a sister site

I've been operating under the impression that (3) is our goal but since I personally tend to be very aggressive about what constitutes off-topic I do drift into (2) when I think it would benefit the overall relationship between EL&U, Writers and ELL and, therefore, the entire StackExchange network.

But this is mostly emergent behavior based on feedback from the community and watching how the other contributors react to questions. It wasn't really a conscious decision looking to achieve an explicit goal.

See also:

• What is the difference between ELU and ELL?

If basic English questions are off-topic at EL&U but are on-topic at ELL what should we do?

It seems correct to close a question as off-topic but how should we signal that we also think the question would be a good fit for ELL? The current close options don't leave a lot of wiggle room and I think this is where the "because it is better asked on ELL" phrase is coming from. We aren't actually trying to say it is off-topic because it is on-topic on ELL. We are just trying to give the user a path forward.

So... is the solution to just pick a better phrasing?

This question appears to be off-topic because it is trivial. If you need help with simple English questions, ask at ELL.

See also:

• Is it okay to flag a question for migration to a beta site

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Minor edit: I have started adding links to other relevant meta posts. If you find one, feel free to add it to this post.

Answer 4

I think your question is just another symptom of the problem that nobody seems to be able to pinpoint the precise difference between ELL and ELU in user-friendly, readily-understandable terms.

This question is off-topic because it's too basic/trivial/(your term here). Try ELL instead.

This question is off-topic because this site is only for really advanced/academic/esoteric/(your term here) users of English. Try ELL instead.

Sure you could spruce up the language a bit, but in essence I think that's what people are getting at. And as an uninformed reader, potentially new to ELU or SE as a whole, it would be hard not to take offense and/or feel like a dummy.

I can only speak for myself, but that's not the impression I want to leave people with. So while "this question is off-topic because it belongs on ELL" is not technically correct, I see it as a reasonable compromise until the more fundamental problem of site definitions is addressed.

Answer 5

I can happen though. For instance, this question about the TOEFL is off-topic on ELU, but probably not on ELL. It has nothing whatsoever to do with using English, but rather a lot to do with learning English.

Answer 6

You are exactly right. Questions should be judged as on-topic or not depending on whether it is on topic on the site in question. If - and only if - it already isn't on topic, then it can be considered whether it would be on topic elsewhere.

I tried to find a general StackExchange reference for this but I couldn't.

However, the Area 51 FAQ does say:

When voting, focus on your site
Don't worry about whether a question might be asked on another site. Your goal is to make the best possible site for this community.

If that's what we're encouraged to do when creating example questions for proposed future sites, I can't see why it wouldn't still apply to a graduated site.

It seems to me there are two situations covered by your case.

1. Questions which would technically be on-topic at ELU but would fit better on ELL.

They should be left on ELU if they're on-topic at ELU. Possibly if they would fit better on ELL then a comment could be added along the lines of:

Hi, this is a great question and thanks for asking it! Just so you're aware, we do have a specialist site for English Language Learners that you might find more suitable for explaining basic grammatical differences like these. Your question is fine here, though, I'm just letting you know about the other site in case it helps you in future :)

(Tailor at will.)

2. Questions which are indeed off-topic but "fits better at ELL" is being used as a close reason

It's entirely possible that some of the questions are off-topic but the ELL excuse is being used as a filler reason.

If it's actually off-topic, there will by definition be a reason for it being off-topic and that is the reason that should be given instead of "it would be a better fit at ELL".

Answer 7

1. This is an internet site. It is not possible to 'fill' it or 'use up all the space' (unless a serious spam problem develops). So I cannot see the necessity of deleting any questions (or moving them). The site is fully searchable, by both its internal tools and Google. A 'dumb question' might be exactly the same question someone else wants answered, and they can find it with Google. If people don't like a particular question, they can ignore it. There is no territory on the internet. Unfortunately, many internet users feel compelled to battle over 'territory' regardless.

2. A textbook--even an online one--does have limited space. A short textbook will attempt to give a simple answer to a particular question. A longer one will acknowledge more complexity. And an academic paper--in linguistics, say--will tackle the difficult details of an issue in a way a textbook never could. There is probably no such thing as a complete answer to any question about language. There are always twists, exceptions, differences in usage--even if we restrict ourselves to so-called 'standard' English. Hence the usefulness of a site like this. That usefulness is severely impacted (if people will accept that as a verb) by people appointing themselves as 'editors' and 'guardians' of the site. I think the mere fact that people plainly feel uncomfortable and intimidated by the behaviour of others here is indicative of that.

This site is not the private territory of a few people with a Dirty-Harry-like compulsion to 'clean up the streets'. And as far as 'doing research' is concerned, almost any statement you find in textbooks or online is incomplete or challengeable, and many are simply wrong. I have been told off several times on this site for relying upon Part Of Speech listings in dictionaries (I think one statement was on the lines of 'never use dictionaries for POS. That's not what they're for').

Certain people are approaching this site as though it was a civic centre or something. It's not--it's a rapidly-widening puddle, nice and warm and muddy, slippery at the edges and deep and a little frightening in the middle. Like language. Attempts to drain and clarify the puddle--or divert it to another site--are doomed. And also completely unnecessary, egotistical, and aggravating for other users.